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| |  Anonymous Client Registered Member
        Date Joined Nov 2004 Total Posts : 500 | Posted 5/15/2009 1:03 PM (GMT +8) |   | | I read the daily this Monday (A Blast From the Recent Past) and was surprised by the thought that generally equity markets need growth to perform. Generally, this is wrong. Equity markets need increasing profits. Early last year (Q2, I think) Gavekal expressed belief in the US economy because growth numbers were better than expected. However, unemployment was already rising quickly and profits were falling sharply. Growth without profits and employment growth is, to me, worthless and will not sustain an equity bull market. | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Will Denyer Registered Member
        Date Joined Jun 2007 Total Posts : 184 | Posted 5/15/2009 1:07 PM (GMT +8) |   | You used the word “sustain” in your question, so I decided to take a long-term approach to exploring your suggestions. To do so, I compare the various growth numbers you talked about versus equity prices, looking at the % changes of each over 4 years. What I found was interesting. Strong long-term bull markets tend to occur when real GDP growth is accelerating (see left chart). While the relationship is less perfect before the 80s, in the last three cycles it is seems that GDP growth is a coincident indicator for equities (as such it does not provide a great heads-up for money managers, but it does appear to be a necessary characteristic for a sustained bull market). It is interesting to note here, however, that the acceleration in real GDP during the last bull market was rather tame compared to the market rally. I think that can partly be explained by the fact that equities were simply pricing super cheap in 2003, and thus they had a lot of catching up to do. Secondly, and perhaps more importantly, that period saw incredible strides in globalization and thus a lot of S&P profits were being found outside of the US, where the growth acceleration was much greater (e.g., in emerging markets). Hopefully, this rally can find legs based on similar supports—i.e., attractive valuations and a rebound in trade and globalization (but if there is to be hope of this, policymakers must not botch it with protectionist measures!). Changes in unemployment track that of GDP very closely, so the relationship to equity performance is also similar (i.e., it also tends to be a coincident indicator from a long-term perspective).
What was particularly interesting, and surprising, to me was the apparent relationship between profit growth and equity performance. Again taking a long-term perspective (4yr % change), it looks like profits tend to lead equity prices by about 2 years (again, this is particularly true in the last three cycles—in each case profits peaked about 2 years before equity markets). To show this, in the right chart, I push profits forward 2 years. Frankly, I am surprised to see such a long delay. In fact, I thought equity prices were supposed to anticipate profits, and if wrong, adjust to them within a quarter or two (when results are known). But even if I take the 1 year rate of changes of profits and equity prices, I again find a common 2 year lag. Perhaps modern monetary policy and credit cycles allow asset prices to proceed with their current trajectory for two years after the fundamentals have started to change? Is this showing the irrational exuberance and then irrational panic now characterizing our market cycles? As I said, I am surprised by this apparent relationship, so I welcome feedback from clients on this.
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  |  Mike Reilly Registered Member
        Date Joined Dec 2007 Total Posts : 32 | Posted 5/16/2009 4:22 AM (GMT +8) |   |
Wicked good post guys !
Bottom line; low valuations and a shift to greater growth potential ( leading to accelerating GDP ) are necessary attributes of a sustained rally. Sounds like profit growth has something to do with accelerating GDP growth.
Question;
Will interpreted ‘sustained’ as implying a longer-term phenomenon OK.
If a rally is defined as X% annualized return over N years, what X & N constitutes a ‘rally’ ?
Peanut Gallery musings;
A real challenge for analysts is to have a causal framework that addresses
“what are the necessary attributes of a sustained rally ?”.
With a causal framework one can separate how fundamentals
drive cyclical behavior from how
” irrational exuberance and then irrational panic”
influence cyclical behavior. | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Greg Atkinson Registered Member
        Date Joined Jul 2008 Total Posts : 136 | Posted 5/30/2009 11:56 AM (GMT +8) |   | | Maybe the lag between increased profits and an increase in the S&P is due to the lag in anaylsys updating their forecasts etc and the time in takes for investors to spot the trend? | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Sebring Registered Member
        Date Joined Nov 2008 Total Posts : 6 | Posted 6/9/2009 2:24 AM (GMT +8) |   | | I think you have the right idea Greg. The way I would put it is that most investors don't get comfortable with a security until there are many quarters of history supporting the trend. For example, if you are underwriting a new loan you would want to see about 8 quarters of a similar profit profile, or better a rising profit profile in order to say it's real. When profits are actually declining for many companies, as they are today, i think it's very hard for most investors to put a valuation on the Company and to justify an investment to a committee. | | Back to Top | | |
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