Home
 
  HomeLog InRegisterCommunity CalendarSearch the ForumHelp
   
Top > GaveKal Forum > GaveKal Forum > Peak Demand  Forum Quick Jump
 
New Topic Post Reply Printable Version
55 posts in this thread.
Viewing Page :
 1  2  3 
[ << Previous Thread | Next Thread >> | Show Oldest Post First ]

Greg Atkinson
Registered Member

Email Address Not AvailablePersonal Homepage Not AvailablePrivate Messaging Not AvailableAIM Not AvailableICQ Not AvailableY! Not AvailableMSN Not Available
Date Joined Jul 2008
Total Posts : 136
 
   Posted 6/10/2009 7:51 AM (GMT +8)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Ahmad,

I am going out on a limb here but couldn't peak demand also apply to such things as coal? Back in my home country (Australia) they are putting a lot of hope in clean coal but isn't possible that we will see a peak demand situation reached for coal as say nuclear power plants come online and we use energy more efficiently?

Cheers,

Greg
Back to Top
 

Rob Hawcroft
Registered Member

Email Address Not AvailablePersonal Homepage Not AvailablePrivate Messaging Not AvailableAIM Not AvailableICQ Not AvailableY! Not AvailableMSN Not Available
Date Joined Jul 2008
Total Posts : 280
 
   Posted 5/20/2009 12:11 AM (GMT +8)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
http://uk.biz.yahoo.com/19052009/323/petrobras-agrees-10-bln-loan-chinese-bank.html

china squeezing the idiots running the western countries out is a necessary attribute of a sustained energy price rally - or even a medium term energy crisis.
Back to Top
 

Ahmad Abdallah
Registered Member

Email Address Not AvailablePersonal Homepage Not AvailablePrivate Messaging Not AvailableAIM Not AvailableICQ Not AvailableY! Not AvailableMSN Not Available
Date Joined May 2007
Total Posts : 188
 
   Posted 5/14/2009 10:33 AM (GMT +8)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

Dear Greg,

Japan has been putting a lid on its oil consumption since 1980 and like Europe has never consumed more than it did in 1979, apart from one year or two in 2000. Japan's demographics as well as strong technology improvement in transport efficiencies should see Japan's oil demand keep to a structural decline. And with Japan being a leader on hybrid technology my guess is that the dowtrend in Japan's oil consumption should accelerate.

Back to Top
 

Greg Atkinson
Registered Member

Email Address Not AvailablePersonal Homepage Not AvailablePrivate Messaging Not AvailableAIM Not AvailableICQ Not AvailableY! Not AvailableMSN Not Available
Date Joined Jul 2008
Total Posts : 136
 
   Posted 5/13/2009 8:56 PM (GMT +8)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Ahmad, understood.

I guess Japan is a pretty good example in terms of a nation putting a lid on oil consumption?
Back to Top
 

Ahmad Abdallah
Registered Member

Email Address Not AvailablePersonal Homepage Not AvailablePrivate Messaging Not AvailableAIM Not AvailableICQ Not AvailableY! Not AvailableMSN Not Available
Date Joined May 2007
Total Posts : 188
 
   Posted 3/16/2009 2:28 PM (GMT +8)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

To make sure it is well understood the Peak Demand paper refers to demand for petroleum having peaked in 2007 and keeping lower for a considerable time. Not for total energy demand having peaked. Total energy demand should keep on increasing and the more so as more renewables finds their way to market. 

We are talking substitution effects not total collapse.
Back to Top
 

Rob Hawcroft
Registered Member

Email Address Not AvailablePersonal Homepage Not AvailablePrivate Messaging Not AvailableAIM Not AvailableICQ Not AvailableY! Not AvailableMSN Not Available
Date Joined Jul 2008
Total Posts : 280
 
   Posted 3/14/2009 5:53 AM (GMT +8)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
http://www.businessgreen.com/business-green/news/2237250/first-solar-reaches-dollar-per

I dont believe in Ahmad's peak demand story, but this article suggests a major upheaval in the next five years regarding base load electricity generation, in particular in Europe where electricity costs are highest. I think in 5 years there is every possibility for 30% or so of developed market electricity to be alternatively generated.
Back to Top
 

Marco Parigi
Registered Member

Email Address Not AvailablePersonal Homepage Not AvailablePrivate Messaging Not AvailableAIM Not AvailableICQ Not AvailableY! Not AvailableMSN Not Available
Date Joined Jul 2008
Total Posts : 9
 
   Posted 12/23/2008 10:17 PM (GMT +8)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Dear Ahmad,

I'd be curious to know your view on this alternative explanation of what has happened to the price of oil over the last months.

http://www.pkverlegerllc.com/080910%20PKV%20On%20Masters.pdf

http://www.pkverlegerllc.com/TIE0807.PDF
Back to Top
 

Rob Hawcroft
Registered Member

Email Address Not AvailablePersonal Homepage Not AvailablePrivate Messaging Not AvailableAIM Not AvailableICQ Not AvailableY! Not AvailableMSN Not Available
Date Joined Jul 2008
Total Posts : 280
 
   Posted 12/21/2008 7:29 AM (GMT +8)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I think Ahmad made a series of good calls. I wasnt surprised to see oil come well below $100 but to see it this low is a bit surprising, however PMIs have collapsed recently. I guess the trick will be timing the upside and after this near heart attack the main OPEC producers will think twice about bringing any new supply on.
Back to Top
 

Greg Atkinson
Registered Member

Email Address Not AvailablePersonal Homepage Not AvailablePrivate Messaging Not AvailableAIM Not AvailableICQ Not AvailableY! Not AvailableMSN Not Available
Date Joined Jul 2008
Total Posts : 136
 
   Posted 12/19/2008 8:10 AM (GMT +8)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Ahmad,

I have read through your posts here a few times and I have to say that you have written the most articulate and easy to understand explanation of the factors behind oil prices that I have ever read. Being a person with an engineering background, I appreciate your analysis which is more fact based than a lot of material flying around these days. (a lot of people seem to think just looking at trends is analysis these days)

Thanks again for your excellent answers and explanations!

Cheers!

Greg
Back to Top
 

Ahmad Abdallah
Registered Member

Email Address Not AvailablePersonal Homepage Not AvailablePrivate Messaging Not AvailableAIM Not AvailableICQ Not AvailableY! Not AvailableMSN Not Available
Date Joined May 2007
Total Posts : 188
 
   Posted 12/4/2008 11:07 PM (GMT +8)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Dear Rob,
 
Yes you do but there is a big misunderstanding about depletion.
  1. All fields deplete yet technology is constantly improving and is yielding greater extraction rates. These Enhanced Oil Recovery technologies can have substantial impact on production (see attached chart for example). The average yield worldwide is about 30% recovery. I have no doubt that the average will keep on improving. in 1960 total oil reserves were estimated at 300bn bbl yet over the following 40 years 760bn bbl have been produced!
  2. Again technology allows us to get oil from new frontiers that we couldn't possibly explore a mere 10 years ago. Example deep offshore subsalt discoveries in Brazil (up to 100bn bbl?) or Palaeocene rock discoveries in the North Sea.
  3. Some areas of the world have still not been surveyed. 2/3 of Libya has not been surveyed, a greater part of the empty quarter hasn't, very deep offshore etc.
  4. The impacts of geopolitics have been appalling for oil production. In fact we currently live in an upside-down world where oil companies are chasing after the most complex and tech intensive fields whereas the majority of the oil to be available lies in easy onshore regions. Iraq comes to mind which could triple production rates or Iran who could produce a third more as it did before the revolution, etc. 

The bottom line is not a problem with the amount of oil stock which is huge (over 1 trillion barrels in Venezuela alone) but with flows, i.e. production rates. Technology, Investment and Politics are the main hurdles or enablers.

So I'd like to think of the cup being half full rather than half empty as our Peakoil friends think.



File Attachment :
Doc4.pdf   136KB (application/pdf)
This file has been downloaded 160 time(s).
Back to Top
 

Rob Hawcroft
Registered Member

Email Address Not AvailablePersonal Homepage Not AvailablePrivate Messaging Not AvailableAIM Not AvailableICQ Not AvailableY! Not AvailableMSN Not Available
Date Joined Jul 2008
Total Posts : 280
 
   Posted 12/4/2008 10:02 PM (GMT +8)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Ahmad,

As oil fields deplete dont you constanly need to bring new fields on stream just to maintain current production levels?


Rob
Back to Top
 

Ahmad Abdallah
Registered Member

Email Address Not AvailablePersonal Homepage Not AvailablePrivate Messaging Not AvailableAIM Not AvailableICQ Not AvailableY! Not AvailableMSN Not Available
Date Joined May 2007
Total Posts : 188
 
   Posted 12/4/2008 8:01 PM (GMT +8)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Dear Greg,

Indeed this may be a problem under the assumption that oil demand will keep growing come what may. I am of the opinion that the peak in demand was seen probably last year and that number won't be seen for many years to come. I would quote Shaikh Yamani whom I met last week: "Today's consumers will never forget the high price of oil they have just seen". I guess he was speaking from experience and our Peak Demand paper last May was precisely to warn readers that demand could remain weak for a great many years.

But that's for the demand side. For the supply side, the Upstream Capital Cost Index chart we show in today's Checking the Boxes, highlights the impact cost push inflation had on upstream project cost, namely a doubling of costs between 2004 and H1-2008. So you are quite right to ask what was the price level factored for new projects. My understanding, after talking to several E&P specialists, is that at most only 500Kbd (probably 300Kbd) of unconventional oil reached very high project cost this year (around $80). Now project cost is not operating cost and the later is much lower. In any case I'm fairly certain that these 500Kbd are the only bad investment around. If the demand side is not there these projects will be kept idle. if the demand is there then either the price of a barrel reaches back to $80 or the fields owners decide to produce by purely looking at operating costs (under $40) in the hope to recover Capex in later years.

Projects that have been shelved are not a problem

1. they can be restarted later.
2. with all input costs collapsing around the world (steel, cement, transport, wages, services etc.) that should greatly benefit FUTURE projects viability

The problem therefore are with existing projects entered at very high Capex and as i said earlier the volume of barrels in those is max 500kbd. Saudi Arabia is adding 2Mbd by end of next year, demand is falling, spare capacity is rising so for the next two years at least these "bad" 500kbd won't be called for. On the other hand costs are falling.

So the worst outcome is again a relatively short period of time (18-24 months) to bring shelved projects to commercialization and having to rely on these 500kbd in the mean time. in a sense this is what some players are looking at as they bid the back end of the forward curve to about $82. I've had a lot of discussion on that price. My opinion is that the more the prompt end of the curve falls the greater the incentive to sell the back-end to narrow an abnormal contango, especially more so if we get a strong sense that next year's demand is going to be negative. If one thinks that 2015 ought to have a price of $82/bbl then better play that with calls options rather than futures, at least that would be an investment with a maximum 100% loss rather than unlimited loss that futures can bring. Besides being long futures today is a negative carry.

To conclude we should ask ourselves why projects are being shelved? is it because of cost push inflation which is falling fast? or is it because producers are not so certain about the demand side? probably a combination of both.

Ahmad
Back to Top
 

Greg Atkinson
Registered Member

Email Address Not AvailablePersonal Homepage Not AvailablePrivate Messaging Not AvailableAIM Not AvailableICQ Not AvailableY! Not AvailableMSN Not Available
Date Joined Jul 2008
Total Posts : 136
 
   Posted 12/4/2008 6:40 PM (GMT +8)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Hi Ahmad,

Do you think now that oil prices have fallen that eventually there will be supply problems as projects are shelved and exploration is cut back? I wonder what price levels were factored in for new oil projects over the next fews?

I guess the old black gold in Antarctica is safe for a few years more.

Cheers,

Greg
Back to Top
 

Ahmad Abdallah
Registered Member

Email Address Not AvailablePersonal Homepage Not AvailablePrivate Messaging Not AvailableAIM Not AvailableICQ Not AvailableY! Not AvailableMSN Not Available
Date Joined May 2007
Total Posts : 188
 
   Posted 11/18/2008 5:15 PM (GMT +8)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

 

You should be able to get reports on estimated costs from the IEA, McKenzy, the Oil Journal and any other specialized publications. 80% of all oil production cost are below $20/bbl. If you look at the $/bbl paid for M&A in 2007 you will find that all deals went for less than $17/bbl valuation. If oil companies accept to sell themselves for less than $17/bbl that should tell you that $90/bbl is simply not the cost of the marginal barrel. But if a company wants to explore and produce from the most hostile and complex regions then there’s no end to how much it may cost. The question is whether that oil is required and in truth it isn’t thus the projects costing $90/bbl simply won’t see the light of day.

 

Back to Top
 

Anonymous Client
Registered Member

Email Address Not AvailablePersonal Homepage Not AvailablePrivate Messaging Not AvailableAIM Not AvailableICQ Not AvailableY! Not AvailableMSN Not Available
Date Joined Nov 2004
Total Posts : 500
 
   Posted 11/18/2008 5:14 PM (GMT +8)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

Dear Gavekal,

 

Would it be possible to ask Ahmad if he can send me the study, or the article in which it is established that the cost of upgrading bitumen to higher-quality liquid is 5$ in Venezuela (as he writes in the last week's Energy Weekly)?

Back to Top
 

Ahmad Abdallah
Registered Member

Email Address Not AvailablePersonal Homepage Not AvailablePrivate Messaging Not AvailableAIM Not AvailableICQ Not AvailableY! Not AvailableMSN Not Available
Date Joined May 2007
Total Posts : 188
 
   Posted 10/27/2008 5:42 PM (GMT +8)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

We should remember to use the yearly average price, which still stands at $110 for the Benchmark. Even if we subtract a good $10 for lesser quality crudes, most producing nations and IOCs are still within the $100 average so far.

 

Where it will get interesting is next year. My guess is that austerity budgets will become the buzz word for those that can; for those that can’t it will be painful. Yet the relationship is not as straight forward, for example inflation is clearly falling and fast. That was the biggest problem in most oil producing nations. Ditto the US$ is now rising so in real terms the fall in oil prices is not as bad as it seems.

 

In fact if oil stabilizes within the $60-$65 average next year, providing that the $ keeps on climbing, my guess is that most producing nations will do nearly as well in real terms revenues and certainly much better on the inflation side. While the net effect will be somewhat negative it will not be the end of the world. Obviously there are always nations who have a knack for blowing it-up whether oil is at $150 or at $10 a barrel ---but that can’t be helped.

Back to Top
 

Louis Gave
Registered Member

Email Address Not AvailablePersonal Homepage Not AvailablePrivate Messaging Not AvailableAIM Not AvailableICQ Not AvailableY! Not AvailableMSN Not Available
Date Joined Nov 2004
Total Posts : 291
 
   Posted 10/27/2008 5:40 PM (GMT +8)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I believe that Russia moved to a current account deficit at oil below US$70 and a budget deficit not long thereafter. Iran and Venezuela are also in trouble below US$60. Meanwhile, most of the arab nations have much more of a cushion although, as Ahmad has been pointing out, there has also been a serious increase in debt all across the middle east, to finance a property bubble which is now imploding. On that front, Dubai looks like it is into a lot of trouble and will have to be bailed out by Abu Dhabi
Back to Top
 

Anonymous Client
Registered Member

Email Address Not AvailablePersonal Homepage Not AvailablePrivate Messaging Not AvailableAIM Not AvailableICQ Not AvailableY! Not AvailableMSN Not Available
Date Joined Nov 2004
Total Posts : 500
 
   Posted 10/27/2008 5:39 PM (GMT +8)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

Watching the oil price fall I was wondering at what point places like Russia + middle east start to get into trouble in terms of cash flow/budget deficits etc?   I seem to recall a figure of $50-60/barrel for Saudi Arabia.  Must have implications for a price floor + political/social unrest + cash flows into SWFs (remember those?!)

Back to Top
 

Ahmad Abdallah
Registered Member

Email Address Not AvailablePersonal Homepage Not AvailablePrivate Messaging Not AvailableAIM Not AvailableICQ Not AvailableY! Not AvailableMSN Not Available
Date Joined May 2007
Total Posts : 188
 
   Posted 10/22/2008 3:46 PM (GMT +8)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

That’s because the IEA is still overestimating demand by 500kbd. Once it revises it down spare capacity will de-facto increase. The IEA publishes its data once a month only but the situation is moving fast. Also data gets revised.

Back to Top
 

Anonymous Client
Registered Member

Email Address Not AvailablePersonal Homepage Not AvailablePrivate Messaging Not AvailableAIM Not AvailableICQ Not AvailableY! Not AvailableMSN Not Available
Date Joined Nov 2004
Total Posts : 500
 
   Posted 10/22/2008 3:44 PM (GMT +8)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
IEA states that effective OPEC spare capacity stands at 2.1 mb/d.
Back to Top
 

Ahmad Abdallah
Registered Member

Email Address Not AvailablePersonal Homepage Not AvailablePrivate Messaging Not AvailableAIM Not AvailableICQ Not AvailableY! Not AvailableMSN Not Available
Date Joined May 2007
Total Posts : 188
 
   Posted 10/22/2008 3:23 PM (GMT +8)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

OPEC’s production is reported by various specialised data vendors, among them Reuters, Platts, Argus etc. OPEC 10 supply in September was 30.4Mbd + 2.37Mbd; out of Iraq makes 32.77Mbd. Total OPEC capacity is 35.17Mbd. Its spare capacity in Sept was 2.4Mbd therefore. If OPEC cuts by 1Mbd to year end its spare capacity will be 3.4Mbd. if you add 900kbd of new fields in Saudia that’s 4.3Mbd. if you remove a very generous 500kbd of decline in older Saudi fields the Net is 3.8Mbd spare capacity for next year on the OPEC side alone.

 

These are the numbers I’ve come up with and that seems to be close enough to consensus.

 

However much Dreyfus, Campbell and Simmons argue it is a matter of fact that demand is collapsing. So I guess they’ll have to revise their peak oil theory further in the future, which is a good thing if you think about it.

Back to Top
 

Anonymous Client
Registered Member

Email Address Not AvailablePersonal Homepage Not AvailablePrivate Messaging Not AvailableAIM Not AvailableICQ Not AvailableY! Not AvailableMSN Not Available
Date Joined Nov 2004
Total Posts : 500
 
   Posted 10/22/2008 3:20 PM (GMT +8)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
How are you so sure that OPEC has spare capacity of 3mb/day excluding 900,000 b/day from Saudi Arabia? where did you get the figures from?

And, what do have to say about the very experienced petroleum geologists (Dreffyes, Campbell) plus Matt Simmons and the ASPO guys who are convinced about Peak Oil?  Surely, they have decades of experience and no vested interest - why would they spread propaganda? 
Back to Top
 

Ahmad Abdallah
Registered Member

Email Address Not AvailablePersonal Homepage Not AvailablePrivate Messaging Not AvailableAIM Not AvailableICQ Not AvailableY! Not AvailableMSN Not Available
Date Joined May 2007
Total Posts : 188
 
   Posted 10/22/2008 3:07 PM (GMT +8)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

The IEA is a bit behind the curve to put it mildly. I personally assess world demand in September close to 85.8 not 86.5. the IEA overestimates US demand and is trying to catch-up. In any case yes there’s been supply disruption in the US Gulf of Mexico from two hurricanes and a greater part of the deficit in Sept is due to oil being held at sea. There has been supply disruption in the Caucasus as well in the Baku pipeline that blew up in Turkey. As a result stocks were drawn down in Europe.

 

Demand in the US is appalling as it is in the rest of the OECD. Still some question marks over EMs demand. I believe China is taking advantage to store a bit of oil in its SPR too. End year 2008 will show zero growth in demand or close enough to zero and ditto for next year if not negative demand. As a result OPEC spare capacity is climbing and should reach an extra 1Mbd for a total of over 3Mbd. That excludes the 900kb of new Saudi fields. So the total should be close enough to 4Mbd. Remember that tight supply demand balances were one of the main arguments for the bull-run. That is easing now.

 

The cost of production of unconventional oil is bound to be falling as all cost factors are falling the world over. I do not believe it ever reached $90 but even if it did due to demand falling the marginal barrel is now found at a lower marginal cost anyway.

 

Right now we are seeing a huge amount of deleveraging across all markets. In my view oil has removed all the excess speculation of the first half of this year and is now trying to find fair value in a fast changing environment. The bull-run and all the news that fed it is gone. You’ll need to re-assess much closer to fundamentals. For now demand is done, inventories are rising. The next step is for buying to ease and inventories to ease and OPEC to cut and spare capacity to rise. That should translate into a bearish price environment especially more so for next year. We won’t see $100 anytime soon, all things equal. The big inflation play with oil is dead and over.

 

I hope that helps. Do not hesitate to ask questions on the Energy Weekly publication too as I try to get closer to the trading environment.

Back to Top
 

Anonymous Client
Registered Member

Email Address Not AvailablePersonal Homepage Not AvailablePrivate Messaging Not AvailableAIM Not AvailableICQ Not AvailableY! Not AvailableMSN Not Available
Date Joined Nov 2004
Total Posts : 500
 
   Posted 10/22/2008 3:04 PM (GMT +8)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I am a bit confused and was wondering if you could help me -

According to the IEA's October's numbers, worldwide demand for oil has averaged 86.5mb/day or up 0.5% from 2007.  And supply in September declined by 1.1mb/day to 85.6....

So, it is clear that demand is still rising whereas supplies are tight - so why is the price of oil dropping?  Is it because of speculators or am I missing something....Marginal cost of production is now $90 from various sources so why this sharp decline?
Back to Top
 

Ahmad Abdallah
Registered Member

Email Address Not AvailablePersonal Homepage Not AvailablePrivate Messaging Not AvailableAIM Not AvailableICQ Not AvailableY! Not AvailableMSN Not Available
Date Joined May 2007
Total Posts : 188
 
   Posted 10/17/2008 3:47 PM (GMT +8)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

Dear Greg,

short answer as i'm writting a piece onthat precise issue:

1. Demand has been damaged irreversibly like after the second oil shock. we are now in a period of seeking alternatives forms of transportation and production. there's a slight demand increase from cash rich countries to rebuild storage but that 's just a blip.

2. we will remain below $100 for a considerable time as we progress into a deflationary period.

3. it needs not cause pain to rich oil countries if the dollar keep appreciating. while their revenues will be somewhat less, in real terms they should be perfectly acceptable especially to those country that peg to the $. (see last week GaveKal Weekly Energy).

more answer to come in an AdHoc early next week

 


Back to Top
 
New Topic Post Reply Printable Version
55 posts in this thread.
Viewing Page :
 1  2  3 
 
Forum Information
Currently it is Thursday, September 09, 2010 9:41 PM (GMT +8)
There are a total of 4,866 posts in 2,383 threads.
In the last 3 days there were 1 new threads and 0 reply posts. View Active Threads
Who's Online
This forum has 536 registered members. Please welcome our newest member, Mark.
9 Guest(s), 0 Registered Member(s) are currently online.  Details