| Top > GaveKal Forum > GaveKal Forum > Peak Demand | Forum Quick Jump
| |  Greg Atkinson Registered Member
        Date Joined Jul 2008 Total Posts : 136 | Posted 6/10/2009 7:51 AM (GMT +8) |   | Ahmad,
I am going out on a limb here but couldn't peak demand also apply to such things as coal? Back in my home country (Australia) they are putting a lot of hope in clean coal but isn't possible that we will see a peak demand situation reached for coal as say nuclear power plants come online and we use energy more efficiently?
Cheers,
Greg | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Rob Hawcroft Registered Member
        Date Joined Jul 2008 Total Posts : 280 | Posted 5/20/2009 12:11 AM (GMT +8) |   | http://uk.biz.yahoo.com/19052009/323/petrobras-agrees-10-bln-loan-chinese-bank.html
china squeezing the idiots running the western countries out is a necessary attribute of a sustained energy price rally - or even a medium term energy crisis. | | Back to Top | | |
  |  Greg Atkinson Registered Member
        Date Joined Jul 2008 Total Posts : 136 | Posted 5/13/2009 8:56 PM (GMT +8) |   | Ahmad, understood.
I guess Japan is a pretty good example in terms of a nation putting a lid on oil consumption? | | Back to Top | | |
  |  Rob Hawcroft Registered Member
        Date Joined Jul 2008 Total Posts : 280 | Posted 3/14/2009 5:53 AM (GMT +8) |   | http://www.businessgreen.com/business-green/news/2237250/first-solar-reaches-dollar-per
I dont believe in Ahmad's peak demand story, but this article suggests a major upheaval in the next five years regarding base load electricity generation, in particular in Europe where electricity costs are highest. I think in 5 years there is every possibility for 30% or so of developed market electricity to be alternatively generated. | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Marco Parigi Registered Member
        Date Joined Jul 2008 Total Posts : 9 | Posted 12/23/2008 10:17 PM (GMT +8) |   | Dear Ahmad,
I'd be curious to know your view on this alternative explanation of what has happened to the price of oil over the last months.
http://www.pkverlegerllc.com/080910%20PKV%20On%20Masters.pdf
http://www.pkverlegerllc.com/TIE0807.PDF | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Rob Hawcroft Registered Member
        Date Joined Jul 2008 Total Posts : 280 | Posted 12/21/2008 7:29 AM (GMT +8) |   | | I think Ahmad made a series of good calls. I wasnt surprised to see oil come well below $100 but to see it this low is a bit surprising, however PMIs have collapsed recently. I guess the trick will be timing the upside and after this near heart attack the main OPEC producers will think twice about bringing any new supply on. | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Greg Atkinson Registered Member
        Date Joined Jul 2008 Total Posts : 136 | Posted 12/19/2008 8:10 AM (GMT +8) |   | Ahmad,
I have read through your posts here a few times and I have to say that you have written the most articulate and easy to understand explanation of the factors behind oil prices that I have ever read. Being a person with an engineering background, I appreciate your analysis which is more fact based than a lot of material flying around these days. (a lot of people seem to think just looking at trends is analysis these days)
Thanks again for your excellent answers and explanations!
Cheers!
Greg | | Back to Top | | |
  |  Rob Hawcroft Registered Member
        Date Joined Jul 2008 Total Posts : 280 | Posted 12/4/2008 10:02 PM (GMT +8) |   | Ahmad,
As oil fields deplete dont you constanly need to bring new fields on stream just to maintain current production levels?
Rob | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Ahmad Abdallah Registered Member
        Date Joined May 2007 Total Posts : 188 | Posted 12/4/2008 8:01 PM (GMT +8) |   | Dear Greg,
Indeed this may be a problem under the assumption that oil demand will keep growing come what may. I am of the opinion that the peak in demand was seen probably last year and that number won't be seen for many years to come. I would quote Shaikh Yamani whom I met last week: "Today's consumers will never forget the high price of oil they have just seen". I guess he was speaking from experience and our Peak Demand paper last May was precisely to warn readers that demand could remain weak for a great many years.
But that's for the demand side. For the supply side, the Upstream Capital Cost Index chart we show in today's Checking the Boxes, highlights the impact cost push inflation had on upstream project cost, namely a doubling of costs between 2004 and H1-2008. So you are quite right to ask what was the price level factored for new projects. My understanding, after talking to several E&P specialists, is that at most only 500Kbd (probably 300Kbd) of unconventional oil reached very high project cost this year (around $80). Now project cost is not operating cost and the later is much lower. In any case I'm fairly certain that these 500Kbd are the only bad investment around. If the demand side is not there these projects will be kept idle. if the demand is there then either the price of a barrel reaches back to $80 or the fields owners decide to produce by purely looking at operating costs (under $40) in the hope to recover Capex in later years.
Projects that have been shelved are not a problem
1. they can be restarted later. 2. with all input costs collapsing around the world (steel, cement, transport, wages, services etc.) that should greatly benefit FUTURE projects viability
The problem therefore are with existing projects entered at very high Capex and as i said earlier the volume of barrels in those is max 500kbd. Saudi Arabia is adding 2Mbd by end of next year, demand is falling, spare capacity is rising so for the next two years at least these "bad" 500kbd won't be called for. On the other hand costs are falling.
So the worst outcome is again a relatively short period of time (18-24 months) to bring shelved projects to commercialization and having to rely on these 500kbd in the mean time. in a sense this is what some players are looking at as they bid the back end of the forward curve to about $82. I've had a lot of discussion on that price. My opinion is that the more the prompt end of the curve falls the greater the incentive to sell the back-end to narrow an abnormal contango, especially more so if we get a strong sense that next year's demand is going to be negative. If one thinks that 2015 ought to have a price of $82/bbl then better play that with calls options rather than futures, at least that would be an investment with a maximum 100% loss rather than unlimited loss that futures can bring. Besides being long futures today is a negative carry.
To conclude we should ask ourselves why projects are being shelved? is it because of cost push inflation which is falling fast? or is it because producers are not so certain about the demand side? probably a combination of both.
Ahmad | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Greg Atkinson Registered Member
        Date Joined Jul 2008 Total Posts : 136 | Posted 12/4/2008 6:40 PM (GMT +8) |   | Hi Ahmad,
Do you think now that oil prices have fallen that eventually there will be supply problems as projects are shelved and exploration is cut back? I wonder what price levels were factored in for new oil projects over the next fews?
I guess the old black gold in Antarctica is safe for a few years more.
Cheers,
Greg | | Back to Top | | |
    |  Louis Gave Registered Member
        Date Joined Nov 2004 Total Posts : 291 | Posted 10/27/2008 5:40 PM (GMT +8) |   | | I believe that Russia moved to a current account deficit at oil below US$70 and a budget deficit not long thereafter. Iran and Venezuela are also in trouble below US$60. Meanwhile, most of the arab nations have much more of a cushion although, as Ahmad has been pointing out, there has also been a serious increase in debt all across the middle east, to finance a property bubble which is now imploding. On that front, Dubai looks like it is into a lot of trouble and will have to be bailed out by Abu Dhabi | | Back to Top | | |
   |  Anonymous Client Registered Member
        Date Joined Nov 2004 Total Posts : 500 | Posted 10/22/2008 3:44 PM (GMT +8) |   | | IEA states that effective OPEC spare capacity stands at 2.1 mb/d. | | Back to Top | | |
  |  Anonymous Client Registered Member
        Date Joined Nov 2004 Total Posts : 500 | Posted 10/22/2008 3:20 PM (GMT +8) |   | How are you so sure that OPEC has spare capacity of 3mb/day excluding 900,000 b/day from Saudi Arabia? where did you get the figures from?
And, what do have to say about the very experienced petroleum geologists (Dreffyes, Campbell) plus Matt Simmons and the ASPO guys who are convinced about Peak Oil? Surely, they have decades of experience and no vested interest - why would they spread propaganda? | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Ahmad Abdallah Registered Member
        Date Joined May 2007 Total Posts : 188 | Posted 10/22/2008 3:07 PM (GMT +8) |   | |
The IEA is a bit behind the curve to put it mildly. I personally assess world demand in September close to 85.8 not 86.5. the IEA overestimates US demand and is trying to catch-up. In any case yes there’s been supply disruption in the US Gulf of Mexico from two hurricanes and a greater part of the deficit in Sept is due to oil being held at sea. There has been supply disruption in the Caucasus as well in the Baku pipeline that blew up in Turkey. As a result stocks were drawn down in Europe.
Demand in the US is appalling as it is in the rest of the OECD. Still some question marks over EMs demand. I believe China is taking advantage to store a bit of oil in its SPR too. End year 2008 will show zero growth in demand or close enough to zero and ditto for next year if not negative demand. As a result OPEC spare capacity is climbing and should reach an extra 1Mbd for a total of over 3Mbd. That excludes the 900kb of new Saudi fields. So the total should be close enough to 4Mbd. Remember that tight supply demand balances were one of the main arguments for the bull-run. That is easing now.
The cost of production of unconventional oil is bound to be falling as all cost factors are falling the world over. I do not believe it ever reached $90 but even if it did due to demand falling the marginal barrel is now found at a lower marginal cost anyway.
Right now we are seeing a huge amount of deleveraging across all markets. In my view oil has removed all the excess speculation of the first half of this year and is now trying to find fair value in a fast changing environment. The bull-run and all the news that fed it is gone. You’ll need to re-assess much closer to fundamentals. For now demand is done, inventories are rising. The next step is for buying to ease and inventories to ease and OPEC to cut and spare capacity to rise. That should translate into a bearish price environment especially more so for next year. We won’t see $100 anytime soon, all things equal. The big inflation play with oil is dead and over.
I hope that helps. Do not hesitate to ask questions on the Energy Weekly publication too as I try to get closer to the trading environment. | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Anonymous Client Registered Member
        Date Joined Nov 2004 Total Posts : 500 | Posted 10/22/2008 3:04 PM (GMT +8) |   | I am a bit confused and was wondering if you could help me -
According to the IEA's October's numbers, worldwide demand for oil has averaged 86.5mb/day or up 0.5% from 2007. And supply in September declined by 1.1mb/day to 85.6....
So, it is clear that demand is still rising whereas supplies are tight - so why is the price of oil dropping? Is it because of speculators or am I missing something....Marginal cost of production is now $90 from various sources so why this sharp decline? | | Back to Top | | |
  | 55 posts in this thread. Viewing Page : 1 2 3 | | Forum Information | Currently it is Thursday, September 09, 2010 9:41 PM (GMT +8) There are a total of 4,866 posts in 2,383 threads. In the last 3 days there were 1 new threads and 0 reply posts. View Active Threads
| | Who's Online | This forum has 536 registered members. Please welcome our newest member, Mark. 9 Guest(s), 0 Registered Member(s) are currently online. Details
|
Forum powered by dotNetBB v2.42EC SP2 dotNetBB © 2000-2010 |
|
|
|